‘Men feel that feminism is at their expense. And the manosphere responds to that’

Ideas about gender play a greater role in violence against women than is recognized, say Djoeke Ardon and Hilde Bakker of the Movisie knowledge institute. In a conversation about feminism, masculinity and blind spots, they show how persistent gender norms are. “We need to think differently about gender as an organizing principle in our society.”

Gender is still underexposed in the Netherlands. While in the case of intimidation, violence or murder, it is enlightening to look at the gender norms that underlie them, according to Djoeke Ardon (33) and Hilde Bakker (67) of Movisie, the knowledge institute for tackling social issues.

Bakker was an expert in the field of tackling domestic and sexual violence for 43 years, she retired in November. Ardon works at Movisie as a researcher and project leader on gender and gender-based violence. Two generations working on the same theme based on similar ideas.

They do have different motivations. Inequality was an important issue for Bakker and she was confronted with it early on, including in her own family. “My brothers had much more freedom and rights than I did. I always protested against that.” After her studies, she became an activist and was put on the path of feminist care by her supervisor. This is how she ended up in a sheltered home, among other things. “And with the theme of domestic violence.”

Ardon: “I grew up in a family where no one adhered to how you should behave as a man or as a woman. My mother was a director, my father a househusband. People thought it was strange that my mother worked and my father did the laundry.”

Bakker and Ardon’s common denominator is their research into violence against women and LGBTI people. Ardon: “For me, violence has a lot to do with how people in the Netherlands think about the differences between men and women.”

What do the Dutch think about that?

Ardon: “We have the self-image of an emancipated country. But many women still work part-time. The share of men in care – including unpaid care for children – is small. And there is still no gender equality in political and managerial positions. Women still earn less than men for the same work. Professions that are practiced by relatively many women receive lower salaries than professions in which many men work.”

Compared to the past, things are getting better, right?

Bakker: “At one point there was an increase in working women. Women had more education and generally did better at school than men. A larger group is economically independent, compared to decades ago. But when women have children, they often lose a working day, men do not. And the common idea is still that mothers take better care of the children – and women often think so too, don’t they.”

Ardon: “I do think that women have greatly expanded their options. But if you look at men and the caring, the unpaid work: it has remained much more unequal. Their emancipation is lagging behind in that area.”

Bakker: “The ‘daddy day’ is filled with fun activities. No laundry or cleaning the toilet.”

Young people seem to be becoming more conservative in their image of men and women. Do you see that too? And what causes that?

Ardon: “We can’t say for the Netherlands yet, but European research shows that young people do indeed think more conservatively. We suspect that it has to do with media consumption. For the first time, you see that boys consume different media than girls. In the past, everyone read the HitkrantFor example, now the Instagram feed is so personalized and boys see different content. About crypto, self-improvement or going to the gym, for example. Content for boys by boys.

“Our biggest question is: why are boys attracted to the misogynistic manosphere [online groepen van mannen en jongens die zich verenigen rond onder meer misogynie en antifeminisme]? It is a response to emancipation and the misunderstanding that this comes at the expense of boys and men. That now feels too much like a threat, because we have not sufficiently explained to boys that equality can also benefit them. They too will have much more freedom if we overturn gender roles. But maybe we don’t explain that enough, and we still convey it too much as: you have to help us.

“And I believe that we have not paid enough attention to the challenges that boys and men face. These arise partly from masculinity norms, which impose all kinds of expectations on them, such as not expressing your emotions. At the same time, we see that boys have less good friendships and do less well at school. By talking about male privileges and ‘toxic masculinity’, boys may have experienced insufficient support in their struggles.”

Was emancipation too focused on women?

Ardon: “Men also suffer from gender norms, all those ideas about how you should behave. They feel that feminism is at their expense. And that is what the manosphere responds to.”

Bakker: “Once you are in such a… loop it is very difficult to get out of there. Fortunately, at the same time you see much more openness in society. And the queer community has grown.

“We have had a very feminist struggle. There were male fighters, but they only formed a small vanguard. In retrospect you think: perhaps we should have involved the men earlier. But it also came from the men to a minimum, that they said: we need more caring fathers and must promote equality. This now seems to have created a gap. Nowadays it is the case – fortunately – that an increasingly larger and broader group of men are actively committed to equality and fight against violence against women and queer people.”

The Netherlands received last year a tap on the fingers of a supervisory body of the Council of Europe, because it has structural shortcomings in tackling violence against women. According to the Council, both the judiciary and agencies such as Veilig Thuis too often treat domestic violence as a conflict between two equals rather than as an abuse of power.

How has attention to violence against women developed?

Bakker: “More than forty years ago it was not really seen as an issue. It was certain feminist groups and shelters that denounced it. Then it was seen as an individual problem. Moreover, the blame was often placed on women. We took many actions. We provided a lot of information. Only then did attention come to it. At a certain point the term ‘domestic violence’ was introduced. That was a gender-neutral term, which we were not happy with.”

Ardon: “The focus on gender and gender norms that played a role in it disappeared a bit.”

Bakker: “Then it became: men can also be victims. And that is true, but never to the same extent as women.”

Ardon: “And even if men are victims, it is important to see the gender dynamics. You have to be very aware of how gender, its relationships and ideas about it play a role in violence. For example, people who have stronger gender norms, and therefore have stronger ideas about how men and women should behave, commit violence more often.”

Every so often there is more attention to violence against women, such as last summer after the murder of seventeen-year-old Lisa from Abcoude.

Ardon: “After that, it quickly became about bushes that need to be removed from public spaces, or about more street lighting and apps that should make it safer for women to walk on the street. The responsibility is thus placed on women. We are not talking about: okay, but who does this? Because by focusing on those peripheral issues, you reaffirm…”

Bakker: “… that men can’t help it: that’s just the way they are. And that’s really passé. Of course, it is also more difficult and persistent to get men to look at themselves, at their behavior, their sexism and perhaps also their violence. At how they cross boundaries – also in relationships and during sex. But that’s where we have to go. Otherwise nothing will change.”

Ardon: “We really need to think differently about gender as an organizing principle in our society.”

How can we deal with this better?

Ardon: “We must dare to look at our norms and values ​​and our culture. These are the basis for intimidation and sexual violence against women and LGBTI people. Instead, it is about lighting and pepper spray. That does not solve the problem.”

https://archive.vn/24mZi