They never would have got a fair trial on the background of all the documentaries that have come out. Plus they would need to find another set of expert witnesses after all their previous ones have all been dragged through the dirt. I doubt anyone would sign up for that.
Be interesting if this opens the door for a decision on her appeal application.
Adm_Shelby2 on
I have, somewhat reluctantly, come round to the belief that this whole thing is a huge miscarriage of justice. And if so, possibly the worst one in living memory.
BuckfastEnjoyer on
The Cheshire police statement is possibly the weirdest thing I’ve ever read. There is *100%* more to this story.
tacitusvanderlinde on
Well thankfully she won’t be getting out anyway. It wouldn’t have made much difference to the whole life order she’s on.
Drummk on
This is such a bizarre one, as either she is an incredibly evil criminal or the biggest miscarriage of justice in history, and there are smart people on either side who will argue their case to the bitter end.
I don’t know enough about it to have an opinion, but it makes me uneasy that there is such dispute.
tpool on
After following this story in private eye and reading about the state of the hospital, I honestly belive this poor women was sacrificed to protect the hospital, consultants and the image of the NHS, the fact the professor who’s paper Dr. Dewi (this sounds like a job for me cox) used as evidence to prove she was guilty has publicly, come out and said his paper does not prove this should set alarm bells ringing [Why are medical experts disputing evidence used to convict Lucy Letby?](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce8y28ny1n0o)
I hated how people rushed to say she’s guilty or not guilty without understanding the evidence. I wish people didn’t get so stubborn and acted like they were picking a team to support. Idk it felt like lots of people were rushing to pick a side without first understanding anything.
AdHot6995 on
So either she is a mass murderer or the hospital and doctors are rubbish and the police are even worse. Is one person languishing in jail worth it to keep up the publics trust in the NHS, police and legal system?
Slapped91 on
Normally when somebody is convicted of such heinous crimes it’s a cut and dried case on which most everybody can agree, but this is different in that there is a very definite split of opinions from the experts all the way down to the armchair commentators.
It’s a shame that this is not happening, as these further charges would have brought the original evidence back into question, meaning we would all have had the opportunity to put this to bed one way or another.
Asleep-Ad1182 on
I don’t claim to know whether Lucy Letby is innocent. But given how little evidence there is, she should not be in prison.
A panel of fourteen senior neonatologists reviewed the medical evidence and concluded that the babies were not murdered, but died as a result of poor care and systemic failures on the unit. So she’s been convinced of murdering babies that weren’t murdered.
There are also profound problems with how statistics were used in the case. Statisticians, including figures associated with the Royal Statistical Society, have warned for years about the dangers of using raw correlations and clustering to infer guilt. The fact that tragedies occurred more often on certain shifts does not, by itself, demonstrate murder. In an understaffed, struggling neonatal unit, tragic outcomes can cluster without criminal intent.
Most troubling of all is the lack of direct evidence. There was no definitive forensic proof, no clear mechanism of murder established beyond dispute, and no confession. The case relied heavily on inference and interpretation rather than proof beyond reasonable doubt.
weirdhoney216 on
This whole case wrecks my head. I’m just a nobody but from everything I’ve seen I can’t tell myself conclusively she’s guilty. If she is, then we have her locked up and that’s great. But if it’s possible she’s innocent, what’s been done to her is absolutely horrific and if I was a nurse I’d be extremely twitchy
When cases involve babies most people want to run on pure emotion and that really shows in this one
catmambo on
Private Eye’s Dr. Phil Hammond has done some great reporting on this, to their credit. Much like their work on the post office scandal, they have been one of the first to say “hang on a minute”…..
Lil_Wheelz99 on
Did she have a diary with some pretty dodgy stuff in it or am I misremembering?
Stoneby16 on
I initially avoided knowing too much about it as I am local to the area. But earlier this year I had my own health stuff going and ending up hospitalised and now regularly needing to go in, I can say a huge part people are missing is the hospital itself. Countess of Chester was ranked the second worst hospital, ive had such a horrible experience dealing with this place, it truly is not providing sufficient care and does not care about its patients.
For me its far more likely that the babies died due to hospital failings then one evil nurse. I dont know if Lucy letby is 100 % innocent, but the evidence is shoddy and it doesn’t meet the ‘beyond reasonable doubt’ in my mind.
purplemackem on
If she is innocent I can’t imagine how horrific it must feel to be her in prison knowing you’ve been falsely accused of the most horrific crime
The sad thing is if she is innocent and is exonerrated her life has already been ruined. She won’t ever be able to escape the accusations and there’ll always be a sizeable number of people who wonder whether she was guilty
addictivesign on
I think she is innocent. The evidence seems to fall apart when questioned rigorously. Global neo-natal experts have put their reputation on the line saying it’s impossible for her to be guilty of these charges.
The prosecution have never come up with a theory for why she wanted to harm these babies. That alone seems bizarre. No reason.
The biggest issue in my opinion is that as a society we have been conditioned by our media diet to believe that a serial killer nurse could be real. We have been fed Agatha Christie stories and the like for years. It’s so incredibly unlikely and the evidence in the case does not suggest she is some evil killer. She was working under the most extreme circumstances, working very long hours at a known failing hospital with the most unwell babies who might not have survived anyway.
I don’t have much faith in juries because seemingly most people don’t have strong critical thinking skills and can be manipulated by talented barristers who can spin great yarns with magnificent oratorical skill.
I also think Jeremy Bamber has been in prison for more than 40 years for a crime he didn’t commit.
There has been a brilliant recent podcast about the case. I recommend everyone to listen to it.
I’m very inclined to believe that this is a miscarriage of justice designed to cover up huge institutional failings at the hospital.
ohnoitsbobbyflay on
What if she turns out to be innocent? How do you go about a normal life again, when your identity and face has been tied to such a heinous crime?
tafftafftafftaff on
Lucy is carrying the can for working on a sloppy and lax ward so more senior staff covered their backsides and threw her under the bus
huzzah-1 on
Fundamentally, this is not about whether you think Lucy Letby is innocent or guilty, it is about a miscarriage of justice: The case against Lucy Letby is circumstantial, and even fraudulent. It should never, ever have gotten as far as a courtroom.
There are many people who will continue to believe that there *must* be proof that Lucy Letby is guilty, and I have talked to such people in person, and they are quite impossible to persuade otherwise. They will continue to believe that she is guilty unless she is absolutely *proven* to be innocent. Because of this, Lucy Letby will be in grave danger for the rest of her life.
fallinasleep on
I don’t know enough about the case to say one way or the other. But what I do know is that senior management in NHS hospitals absolutely uses nurses as scape goats to protect the hospital, so that option is not beyond the realms of possibility.
Dwengo on
I’m not sure if she is guilty or not. BUT I do think her trial was a sham. The evidence has fallen away and the courts are reluctant to re open it. It feels like a huge miscarriage of justice. Like if they re tried her and had more solid reliable evidence and she was found guilty I would feel better but right now there’s a nagging feeling that there just wasn’t enough solid evidence to convict her and she was a bit of a scapegoat to cover up the poor management and short staffing. It also doesn’t help that they opened a criminal case against some of the management not that long ago.
zz63245 on
The recent C4 two part doc about it is very good. The witness the prosecution relied on was hell bent on her guilt. Before he even knew the proper facts.
Keinix22 on
I am not saying she is innocent but I think a retrial could be fair .
Total-Object-1859 on
I feel like the most important part is that if there is reasonable doubt then the legal system has to do everything in its power to be certain that justice is served fairly both in and against her favour.
pdiddle20 on
I was full on in the she’s guilty camp after listening to the first one but completely 180’d after the 2nd.
The hosts are very good at picking apart the whole story plus evidence
26 Comments
They never would have got a fair trial on the background of all the documentaries that have come out. Plus they would need to find another set of expert witnesses after all their previous ones have all been dragged through the dirt. I doubt anyone would sign up for that.
Be interesting if this opens the door for a decision on her appeal application.
I have, somewhat reluctantly, come round to the belief that this whole thing is a huge miscarriage of justice. And if so, possibly the worst one in living memory.
The Cheshire police statement is possibly the weirdest thing I’ve ever read. There is *100%* more to this story.
Well thankfully she won’t be getting out anyway. It wouldn’t have made much difference to the whole life order she’s on.
This is such a bizarre one, as either she is an incredibly evil criminal or the biggest miscarriage of justice in history, and there are smart people on either side who will argue their case to the bitter end.
I don’t know enough about it to have an opinion, but it makes me uneasy that there is such dispute.
After following this story in private eye and reading about the state of the hospital, I honestly belive this poor women was sacrificed to protect the hospital, consultants and the image of the NHS, the fact the professor who’s paper Dr. Dewi (this sounds like a job for me cox) used as evidence to prove she was guilty has publicly, come out and said his paper does not prove this should set alarm bells ringing [Why are medical experts disputing evidence used to convict Lucy Letby?](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce8y28ny1n0o)
I’d also recommend watching the press conference where he outlines why the pannel believes the deaths can be explained by poor care and work practices. [press conference ](https://www.youtube.com/live/DT8CO15IHMs?si=IyttXcqoJm3Ma9Vi)
I hated how people rushed to say she’s guilty or not guilty without understanding the evidence. I wish people didn’t get so stubborn and acted like they were picking a team to support. Idk it felt like lots of people were rushing to pick a side without first understanding anything.
So either she is a mass murderer or the hospital and doctors are rubbish and the police are even worse. Is one person languishing in jail worth it to keep up the publics trust in the NHS, police and legal system?
Normally when somebody is convicted of such heinous crimes it’s a cut and dried case on which most everybody can agree, but this is different in that there is a very definite split of opinions from the experts all the way down to the armchair commentators.
It’s a shame that this is not happening, as these further charges would have brought the original evidence back into question, meaning we would all have had the opportunity to put this to bed one way or another.
I don’t claim to know whether Lucy Letby is innocent. But given how little evidence there is, she should not be in prison.
A panel of fourteen senior neonatologists reviewed the medical evidence and concluded that the babies were not murdered, but died as a result of poor care and systemic failures on the unit. So she’s been convinced of murdering babies that weren’t murdered.
There are also profound problems with how statistics were used in the case. Statisticians, including figures associated with the Royal Statistical Society, have warned for years about the dangers of using raw correlations and clustering to infer guilt. The fact that tragedies occurred more often on certain shifts does not, by itself, demonstrate murder. In an understaffed, struggling neonatal unit, tragic outcomes can cluster without criminal intent.
Most troubling of all is the lack of direct evidence. There was no definitive forensic proof, no clear mechanism of murder established beyond dispute, and no confession. The case relied heavily on inference and interpretation rather than proof beyond reasonable doubt.
This whole case wrecks my head. I’m just a nobody but from everything I’ve seen I can’t tell myself conclusively she’s guilty. If she is, then we have her locked up and that’s great. But if it’s possible she’s innocent, what’s been done to her is absolutely horrific and if I was a nurse I’d be extremely twitchy
When cases involve babies most people want to run on pure emotion and that really shows in this one
Private Eye’s Dr. Phil Hammond has done some great reporting on this, to their credit. Much like their work on the post office scandal, they have been one of the first to say “hang on a minute”…..
Did she have a diary with some pretty dodgy stuff in it or am I misremembering?
I initially avoided knowing too much about it as I am local to the area. But earlier this year I had my own health stuff going and ending up hospitalised and now regularly needing to go in, I can say a huge part people are missing is the hospital itself. Countess of Chester was ranked the second worst hospital, ive had such a horrible experience dealing with this place, it truly is not providing sufficient care and does not care about its patients.
For me its far more likely that the babies died due to hospital failings then one evil nurse. I dont know if Lucy letby is 100 % innocent, but the evidence is shoddy and it doesn’t meet the ‘beyond reasonable doubt’ in my mind.
If she is innocent I can’t imagine how horrific it must feel to be her in prison knowing you’ve been falsely accused of the most horrific crime
The sad thing is if she is innocent and is exonerrated her life has already been ruined. She won’t ever be able to escape the accusations and there’ll always be a sizeable number of people who wonder whether she was guilty
I think she is innocent. The evidence seems to fall apart when questioned rigorously. Global neo-natal experts have put their reputation on the line saying it’s impossible for her to be guilty of these charges.
The prosecution have never come up with a theory for why she wanted to harm these babies. That alone seems bizarre. No reason.
The biggest issue in my opinion is that as a society we have been conditioned by our media diet to believe that a serial killer nurse could be real. We have been fed Agatha Christie stories and the like for years. It’s so incredibly unlikely and the evidence in the case does not suggest she is some evil killer. She was working under the most extreme circumstances, working very long hours at a known failing hospital with the most unwell babies who might not have survived anyway.
I don’t have much faith in juries because seemingly most people don’t have strong critical thinking skills and can be manipulated by talented barristers who can spin great yarns with magnificent oratorical skill.
I also think Jeremy Bamber has been in prison for more than 40 years for a crime he didn’t commit.
There has been a brilliant recent podcast about the case. I recommend everyone to listen to it.
https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/in-the-dark/id1148175292?i=1000733850028
I’m very inclined to believe that this is a miscarriage of justice designed to cover up huge institutional failings at the hospital.
What if she turns out to be innocent? How do you go about a normal life again, when your identity and face has been tied to such a heinous crime?
Lucy is carrying the can for working on a sloppy and lax ward so more senior staff covered their backsides and threw her under the bus
Fundamentally, this is not about whether you think Lucy Letby is innocent or guilty, it is about a miscarriage of justice: The case against Lucy Letby is circumstantial, and even fraudulent. It should never, ever have gotten as far as a courtroom.
There are many people who will continue to believe that there *must* be proof that Lucy Letby is guilty, and I have talked to such people in person, and they are quite impossible to persuade otherwise. They will continue to believe that she is guilty unless she is absolutely *proven* to be innocent. Because of this, Lucy Letby will be in grave danger for the rest of her life.
I don’t know enough about the case to say one way or the other. But what I do know is that senior management in NHS hospitals absolutely uses nurses as scape goats to protect the hospital, so that option is not beyond the realms of possibility.
I’m not sure if she is guilty or not. BUT I do think her trial was a sham. The evidence has fallen away and the courts are reluctant to re open it. It feels like a huge miscarriage of justice. Like if they re tried her and had more solid reliable evidence and she was found guilty I would feel better but right now there’s a nagging feeling that there just wasn’t enough solid evidence to convict her and she was a bit of a scapegoat to cover up the poor management and short staffing. It also doesn’t help that they opened a criminal case against some of the management not that long ago.
The recent C4 two part doc about it is very good. The witness the prosecution relied on was hell bent on her guilt. Before he even knew the proper facts.
I am not saying she is innocent but I think a retrial could be fair .
I feel like the most important part is that if there is reasonable doubt then the legal system has to do everything in its power to be certain that justice is served fairly both in and against her favour.
I was full on in the she’s guilty camp after listening to the first one but completely 180’d after the 2nd.
The hosts are very good at picking apart the whole story plus evidence
https://open.spotify.com/episode/69LPRrgL2v7hqfBwWCz9MN?si=AmcWsIuIScCAdF3J_MSjig
https://open.spotify.com/episode/53FFot29q0CRQeKOdnnO1u?si=yu3It-RiTtCgSkU8g6ozgg