> A Christian school worker who was dismissed after describing LGBTQ+ relationship lessons as ‘brainwashing’ has won a Court of Appeal battle.
Bit hypocritical for a Christian to claim teaching something is brainwashing, given the level of indoctrination the church has attempted on children.
limeflavoured on
It’s been fairly settled for a while that it’s dodgy ground to sack someone for stuff they say outside of work unless it’s criminal or a breach of their contract.
Poop_Scissors on
They’re not LGBTQ+ lessons, they’re not teaching the kids to be queer are they?
Acknowledging gay people exist, the horror.
Lady-Maya on
The actual important section:
> ‘The school sought to justify her dismissal on the basis that the posts in question were intemperately expressed and included insulting references to the promoters of gender fluidity and “the LGBT crowd” which were liable to damage the school’s reputation in the community: the posts had been reported by one parent and might be seen by others.
>
> ‘However, neither the language of the posts nor the risk of reputational damage were capable of justifying the claimant’s dismissal in circumstances where **she had not said anything of the kind at work or displayed any discriminatory attitudes in her treatment of pupils.’**
TL;DR
You can rave about anything you want outside of work, and as-long as it’s not done during work you’re apparently fine.
quarky_uk on
To be fair, we can certainly criticise christianity.
Andrew1990M on
If I had to be brainwashed into being gay or religious I know which I’d pick.
ApplicationCreepy987 on
How the f#*? could that happen. We are not America yet
Woffingshire on
So what it ultimately came down to was she opposed plans that (from get perspective) clash with her religious beliefs, was fired for it, and won because she was ultimately fired for her religious beliefs, which is illegal discrimination.
ZanzibarGuy on
Well, we’ve got the whole “I may not agree with what you say, but I defend your right to say it,” and then we have the whole paradox of tolerance.
And I appreciate that organisations shouldn’t dictate what you do outside of that organisation in your free time. But then again if there’s some kind of “bringing the organisation into disrepute…” clause then that also kinda *does* dictate what you do outside of the organisation, especially if your hobby or free time is generally spent being what appears to be a terrible person.
Ugh. I dislike this. But as is repeatedly shown time and time again – the law is an ass.
dandotcom on
Very difficult to feel sorry for the nut job after her little “we’re so persecuted” routine.
Kobruh456 on
These hateful views should not be welcome in a modern society, disgusting that she was able to win this appeal. This will only embolden those with these types of views.
> The dismissal of an employee merely because they have expressed a religious or other protected belief to which the employer, or a third party with whom it wishes to protect its reputation, objects will constitute unlawful direct discrimination within the meaning of the Equality Act.
> However, if the dismissal is motivated not simply by the expression of the belief itself (or third parties’ reaction to it) but by something objectionable in the way in which it was expressed, determined objectively, then … the dismissal will be lawful if, but only if, the employer shows that it was a proportionate response to the objectionable feature – in short, that it was objectively justified…
i.e. you can fire people for expressing their beliefs, but only if you can show *the way they expressed that belief* objectively justifies firing them.
> In the present case the Claimant, who was employed in a secondary school, had posted messages, mostly quoted from other sources, objecting to Government policy on sex education in primary schools because of its promotion of “gender fluidity” and its equation of same-sex marriage with marriage between a man and a woman. It was not in dispute, following the earlier decision of the EAT in *Forstater v GCD Europe*, that the Claimant’s beliefs that gender is binary and that same-sex marriage cannot be equated with marriage between a man and a woman are protected by the Equality Act.
> The school sought to justify her dismissal on the basis that the posts in question were intemperately expressed and included insulting references to the promoters of gender fluidity and “the LGBT crowd” which were liable to damage the school’s reputation in the community: the posts had been reported by one parent and might be seen by others. However, neither the language of the posts nor the risk of reputational damage were capable of justifying the Claimant’s dismissal in circumstances where she had not said anything of the kind at work or displayed any discriminatory attitudes in her treatment of pupils…
i.e. the school failed to justify their response because the teacher’s comments weren’t offensive enough, and she only posted them on her Facebook page, not more publicly, or in school.
Also, look at that, the *Forstater* decision rearing its head to cause problems again. Finding that prejudicial or hatred-based beliefs are still beliefs and deserve full protection in law.
NorthernScrub on
Children should not be exposed to religion unless from a secular, educational standpoint until they are 18.
OpticalData on
Yet another instance of somebody being dismissed for bringing their employer into disrepute/breaching work policies. That is initially upheld in court
>In a 2020 ruling, a tribunal ruled that Higgs’ religion is a ‘protected characteristic’ but the school lawfully dismissed her.
Then overturned after groups with… Lets just say less than transparent funding turn on the money taps to bring it back in front of the court until they get the answer they want:
>The ruling was overturned by an appeal tribunal three years later.
>Lord Justice Underhill, sitting with Lord Justice Bean and Lady Justice Falk, ruled in Higgs’ favour today.
>Andrea Williams, chief executive of the Christian Legal Centre, a legal aid group that supported Higgs
Its worth noting that ‘Christian Legal Centre’ was the same org that was criticised for it’s involvement in the Alfie Evans and Archie Battersby cases.
Completely unsurprising to see that groups such as the Free Speech Union, The Association of Christian Teachers [Which has a very dodgy looking website](https://www.christian-teachers.org.uk/) and only seems to publish anything on it when there’s a media narrative. Leading to about one post a year and, of course. The transphobia peddling Sex Matters is involved.
Baslifico on
> The former pastoral administrator said teaching that ‘all relationships are equally valid’ and that ‘same-sex marriage is exactly the same as traditional marriage’ amounts to a ‘viscous form of totalitarianism’.
Not allowing her to spread hate is “a ‘viscous [sic] form of totalitarianism’”?
chronicnerv on
I think children need to be taught to think for themselves and not trust that all authority has children’s best interest at heart. So many examples Cadets leading to Armed forces, Religion, people informing minors of sexuality before they even know what attraction or feelings are.
To help children, make sure they have the finances to have a good education and leave them be and stop letting people recruit them into Ideologies before they can think for themselves.
Without the legal protection most of the above would be seen as predatory but that is not the way the world works. it is what it is.
tydestra on
Sure Jan, teachers can’t get kids to behave or do their HW but they can indoctrinate them into queerness by telling them that some kids have 2 mothers/fathers.
Not to mention as a queer kid (I knew I wasn’t straight since I was like 10 and came out at 15), I saw nothing but straight representations and I’m still queer.
inevitablelizard on
Sad and very worrying that homophobes and bigots seem to be winning a lot recently.
salamanderwolf on
The only way you could defend that statement is if it finished with, “and that argument is obviously bollocks.”
I would have sacked her for being a danger to the kids.
Dragon_Sluts on
Well, my primary school made us pray to your imaginary god so fuck you.
(Yes it was a state CofE school, but I already couldn’t go to my closest since it was fee paying and any other primary schools were too far too walk).
Equality Act still let’s religious groups sack people because of their sexuality, maybe we level the playingfield and let public bodies sack fanatics because of their religion.
bananablegh on
As a gay man, growing up without much normality surrounding the feelings I was having and the sense that being gay is embarrassing or wrong did tremendous damage to me, and I know a million stories just like my own.
Why is this woman ok with teenagers who simply cannot help their sexuality growing up with such frankly irreversible damage? It’s fucking ghastly.
21 Comments
> A Christian school worker who was dismissed after describing LGBTQ+ relationship lessons as ‘brainwashing’ has won a Court of Appeal battle.
Bit hypocritical for a Christian to claim teaching something is brainwashing, given the level of indoctrination the church has attempted on children.
It’s been fairly settled for a while that it’s dodgy ground to sack someone for stuff they say outside of work unless it’s criminal or a breach of their contract.
They’re not LGBTQ+ lessons, they’re not teaching the kids to be queer are they?
Acknowledging gay people exist, the horror.
The actual important section:
> ‘The school sought to justify her dismissal on the basis that the posts in question were intemperately expressed and included insulting references to the promoters of gender fluidity and “the LGBT crowd” which were liable to damage the school’s reputation in the community: the posts had been reported by one parent and might be seen by others.
>
> ‘However, neither the language of the posts nor the risk of reputational damage were capable of justifying the claimant’s dismissal in circumstances where **she had not said anything of the kind at work or displayed any discriminatory attitudes in her treatment of pupils.’**
TL;DR
You can rave about anything you want outside of work, and as-long as it’s not done during work you’re apparently fine.
To be fair, we can certainly criticise christianity.
If I had to be brainwashed into being gay or religious I know which I’d pick.
How the f#*? could that happen. We are not America yet
So what it ultimately came down to was she opposed plans that (from get perspective) clash with her religious beliefs, was fired for it, and won because she was ultimately fired for her religious beliefs, which is illegal discrimination.
Well, we’ve got the whole “I may not agree with what you say, but I defend your right to say it,” and then we have the whole paradox of tolerance.
And I appreciate that organisations shouldn’t dictate what you do outside of that organisation in your free time. But then again if there’s some kind of “bringing the organisation into disrepute…” clause then that also kinda *does* dictate what you do outside of the organisation, especially if your hobby or free time is generally spent being what appears to be a terrible person.
Ugh. I dislike this. But as is repeatedly shown time and time again – the law is an ass.
Very difficult to feel sorry for the nut job after her little “we’re so persecuted” routine.
These hateful views should not be welcome in a modern society, disgusting that she was able to win this appeal. This will only embolden those with these types of views.
The judgment is [here](https://www.judiciary.uk/judgments/higgs-v-farmors-school/) and the lead judge gives a handy summary at the end:
> The dismissal of an employee merely because they have expressed a religious or other protected belief to which the employer, or a third party with whom it wishes to protect its reputation, objects will constitute unlawful direct discrimination within the meaning of the Equality Act.
> However, if the dismissal is motivated not simply by the expression of the belief itself (or third parties’ reaction to it) but by something objectionable in the way in which it was expressed, determined objectively, then … the dismissal will be lawful if, but only if, the employer shows that it was a proportionate response to the objectionable feature – in short, that it was objectively justified…
i.e. you can fire people for expressing their beliefs, but only if you can show *the way they expressed that belief* objectively justifies firing them.
> In the present case the Claimant, who was employed in a secondary school, had posted messages, mostly quoted from other sources, objecting to Government policy on sex education in primary schools because of its promotion of “gender fluidity” and its equation of same-sex marriage with marriage between a man and a woman. It was not in dispute, following the earlier decision of the EAT in *Forstater v GCD Europe*, that the Claimant’s beliefs that gender is binary and that same-sex marriage cannot be equated with marriage between a man and a woman are protected by the Equality Act.
> The school sought to justify her dismissal on the basis that the posts in question were intemperately expressed and included insulting references to the promoters of gender fluidity and “the LGBT crowd” which were liable to damage the school’s reputation in the community: the posts had been reported by one parent and might be seen by others. However, neither the language of the posts nor the risk of reputational damage were capable of justifying the Claimant’s dismissal in circumstances where she had not said anything of the kind at work or displayed any discriminatory attitudes in her treatment of pupils…
i.e. the school failed to justify their response because the teacher’s comments weren’t offensive enough, and she only posted them on her Facebook page, not more publicly, or in school.
Also, look at that, the *Forstater* decision rearing its head to cause problems again. Finding that prejudicial or hatred-based beliefs are still beliefs and deserve full protection in law.
Children should not be exposed to religion unless from a secular, educational standpoint until they are 18.
Yet another instance of somebody being dismissed for bringing their employer into disrepute/breaching work policies. That is initially upheld in court
>In a 2020 ruling, a tribunal ruled that Higgs’ religion is a ‘protected characteristic’ but the school lawfully dismissed her.
Then overturned after groups with… Lets just say less than transparent funding turn on the money taps to bring it back in front of the court until they get the answer they want:
>The ruling was overturned by an appeal tribunal three years later.
>Lord Justice Underhill, sitting with Lord Justice Bean and Lady Justice Falk, ruled in Higgs’ favour today.
>Andrea Williams, chief executive of the Christian Legal Centre, a legal aid group that supported Higgs
Its worth noting that ‘Christian Legal Centre’ was the same org that was criticised for it’s involvement in the Alfie Evans and Archie Battersby cases.
[Their Wikipedia page is certainly a read](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Legal_Centre)
Completely unsurprising to see that groups such as the Free Speech Union, The Association of Christian Teachers [Which has a very dodgy looking website](https://www.christian-teachers.org.uk/) and only seems to publish anything on it when there’s a media narrative. Leading to about one post a year and, of course. The transphobia peddling Sex Matters is involved.
> The former pastoral administrator said teaching that ‘all relationships are equally valid’ and that ‘same-sex marriage is exactly the same as traditional marriage’ amounts to a ‘viscous form of totalitarianism’.
Not allowing her to spread hate is “a ‘viscous [sic] form of totalitarianism’”?
I think children need to be taught to think for themselves and not trust that all authority has children’s best interest at heart. So many examples Cadets leading to Armed forces, Religion, people informing minors of sexuality before they even know what attraction or feelings are.
To help children, make sure they have the finances to have a good education and leave them be and stop letting people recruit them into Ideologies before they can think for themselves.
Without the legal protection most of the above would be seen as predatory but that is not the way the world works. it is what it is.
Sure Jan, teachers can’t get kids to behave or do their HW but they can indoctrinate them into queerness by telling them that some kids have 2 mothers/fathers.
Not to mention as a queer kid (I knew I wasn’t straight since I was like 10 and came out at 15), I saw nothing but straight representations and I’m still queer.
Sad and very worrying that homophobes and bigots seem to be winning a lot recently.
The only way you could defend that statement is if it finished with, “and that argument is obviously bollocks.”
I would have sacked her for being a danger to the kids.
Well, my primary school made us pray to your imaginary god so fuck you.
(Yes it was a state CofE school, but I already couldn’t go to my closest since it was fee paying and any other primary schools were too far too walk).
Equality Act still let’s religious groups sack people because of their sexuality, maybe we level the playingfield and let public bodies sack fanatics because of their religion.
As a gay man, growing up without much normality surrounding the feelings I was having and the sense that being gay is embarrassing or wrong did tremendous damage to me, and I know a million stories just like my own.
Why is this woman ok with teenagers who simply cannot help their sexuality growing up with such frankly irreversible damage? It’s fucking ghastly.
Fuck her.