Former NASA administrators Charlie Broden and Jim Bridenstine call for changes in Artemis lunar lander architecture: “How did we get back here where we now need 11 launches to get one crew to the moon? (referring to Starship). We’re never going to get there like this.”
Former NASA administrators call for changes in Artemis lunar lander architecture
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With Starship V1, it was 20 launches: [https://spacenews.com/starship-lunar-lander-missions-to-require-nearly-20-launches-nasa-says/](https://spacenews.com/starship-lunar-lander-missions-to-require-nearly-20-launches-nasa-says/)
It’s not a race. There was a race before many of us were born. The USA won.
IMO they’re focusing on the wrong metric: they should be looking at the *cost to the taxpayer* rather than on the *number of launches*.
They’re right, the multiple refuel solution was crazy
If the goal was to beat China to the Moon, then the Starship HLS maybe isn’t the best choice.
But if the goal is a sustainable lunar presence, it is 100% the right choice.
Article doesn’t mention that bridenstine works for ULA, the half owners of which are pitching this alternative lunar lander plan that is both vague and fanciful.
Also, Charlie Broden?
Is it really 11 launches? Isn’t that for maximum payload to the moon (100 tons)? The HLS won’t carry anything that heavy.
Who cares how many unmanned launches it takes? It’s time cost and capability that matters
Seems that rapid turnaround was a pretty standard Silicon Valley deception.
The real question should be whether China cancels their mission as the US founders.
It’s almost as if there is incompetence and corruption in the United States that’s holding big projects back.
Which metric is most important?
1. Number of launches
2. Mission cost
3. Cost per ton of cargo
Does 1 really exceed the other 2?
As with all government agencies, the goal is to funnel taxpayer money to the LLC’s and private shareholders. Mission goals are not as important to them as lucrative, generous contracts. Ain’t like they have to give the money back, especially when those companies funnel money to politician’s campaigns.
Orbital refueling is a great solution for long term exploration, which was the original goal of the Artemis program, its much more complex and will obviously take longer to develop, but once its proven it will open the floodgates for long term sustained lunar operations.
Only recently have the goalposts shifted to turn it into a race, this has left both SpaceX and Blue Origin with very little chance of meeting the deadline as both architectures require large scale orbital cryogenic refueling to get to the moon.
Personally i see no point in the US trying to beat china when A: they already did this 50 years ago and B: Chinas first mission there will be nothing more than a flags and footprints PR stunt.
The better play is to lose the initial “race” and instead take more time and come back with 100s of tonnes of payload to set up a full scale lunar base, instead of rushing ahead with a fully expendable architecture just for the sake of political PR.
“He described a two-stage design, with a descent element that remains on the lunar surface while the ascent element returns astronauts to Orion.”
Wow – what a radical idea. Exactly how we got there and back in 1969.
This is some legacy launch thinking right there. With current Falcon 9 launch cadence, 11 launches is less than one month, and with the planned reusability of both ship and booster, 11 launches could probably be performed in a few days.
I’d rather need 11 launches from a company that has done 138 launches this year alone. Than a single launch from a rocket that has launched once and can’t launch once per year. Especially if the 11 launches are cheaper than the single launch.
With 11 refuelings, if the chance something breaks with each refueling/launch is 1%, then the chance the something goes wrong over the whole thing is ~10%
The thing hasn’t even been into orbit yet it’s ridiculous.
Acronyms, initialisms, abbreviations, contractions, and other phrases which expand to something larger, that I’ve seen in this thread:
|Fewer Letters|More Letters|
|——-|———|—|
|[BO](/r/Space/comments/1ojyuwm/stub/nm70jkd “Last usage”)|Blue Origin (*Bezos Rocketry*)|
|[FAA](/r/Space/comments/1ojyuwm/stub/nm76a98 “Last usage”)|Federal Aviation Administration|
|[HLS](/r/Space/comments/1ojyuwm/stub/nm72o38 “Last usage”)|[Human Landing System](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemis_program#Human_Landing_System) (Artemis)|
|[LEO](/r/Space/comments/1ojyuwm/stub/nm6xbtx “Last usage”)|Low Earth Orbit (180-2000km)|
| |Law Enforcement Officer (most often mentioned during transport operations)|
|[RTLS](/r/Space/comments/1ojyuwm/stub/nm6r8dv “Last usage”)|Return to Launch Site|
|[SLS](/r/Space/comments/1ojyuwm/stub/nm75qjs “Last usage”)|Space Launch System heavy-lift|
|[ULA](/r/Space/comments/1ojyuwm/stub/nm6nyx9 “Last usage”)|United Launch Alliance (Lockheed/Boeing joint venture)|
|Jargon|Definition|
|——-|———|—|
|[Raptor](/r/Space/comments/1ojyuwm/stub/nm6xen6 “Last usage”)|[Methane-fueled rocket engine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raptor_(rocket_engine_family)) under development by SpaceX|
|[cryogenic](/r/Space/comments/1ojyuwm/stub/nm75qjs “Last usage”)|Very low temperature fluid; materials that would be gaseous at room temperature/pressure|
| |(In re: rocket fuel) Often synonymous with hydrolox|
|hydrolox|Portmanteau: liquid hydrogen fuel, liquid oxygen oxidizer|
|[tanking](/r/Space/comments/1ojyuwm/stub/nm75kcr “Last usage”)|Filling the tanks of a rocket stage|
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“How did we get here to where we now need 11 launches to get a crew to the moon” says guy who is part of the problem
I just saw this picture and knew it was a bad idea. Even before I knew that Musk is crazy.
11 refill is the most optimistic,
It is done using the theoretical maximum payload, never demonstrated. No loss during transport ant transfer, and not considering that from physics, 50% of what is in orbit should be evaporated after one or 2 weeks due to earth and sun radiation
Bolden is the guy who said in was it 2016? that falcon heavy may one day fly, but the SLS was real.
falcon heavy flew years before SLS flew for the first time, and SLS will, probably within the next year fly for the second time.
I am not sure if he say what he had to say, or if he genuinely believed this, but I wouldn’t put too much stake in his opinion.
Is Bridenstine taking into consideration how fast of a refueling cadence that SpaceX is planning? 11 flights is nothing if you knock it out in one or two weeks.
They are not wrong. From a con-ops perspective, the more moving parts you have the more risk. The risk on every one of these launches compounds.