It is entirely unsustainable and the hard truth is parents are going to have to take the responsibility for getting their children to and from school.
South_Buy_3175 on
I mean, the cost is absolutely insane and isn’t sustainable at all.
But I refuse to believe it costs 2 billion to send less than 2 million children to school.
It’s just brazen corruption and massive overspending. Just get someone to look through it all and root out the people who are utterly taking the piss.
Edit: Reading further into this, the 2 billion is just for a certain percentage. Councils are actually projected to spend 14.8 billion on students this year and it’s not actually 2 million students, less than 700k qualify for the highest levels of support.
So can everyone commenting “It’s only £5 a day! It’s fine” please fucking stop.
It’s not fine. The costs are utterly insane.
These kids might need assistance, but people are absolutely taking the piss out of the government.
UJ_Reddit on
Hidden cost of needing all parents to work. Maybe it’s about time school hours adapted like so many other countries?
Edit: Pre and post working hours, so from 8am and until 6pm. They should be voluntary and we should think of it as providing activities and centralised childcare – not extend schooling.
They should NOT be run by teachers – the police have PSCOs, pharmacist and nurse roles have expanded to support doctors. Education needs to catch up with modern life.
Altruistic-Bat-9070 on
For context we spend 2.4 billion rebuilding schools each year to make them safe. We are giving taxi drivers almost the same amount as we are trying to spend just keeping the schools upright.
Monkeyliar95 on
It’s unfortunately a combination of abuse of the system by the companies overcharging and making massive profits from the tax payers expense, abuse by the parents getting their children diagnosed with disabilities on purpose because it lets them get additional benefits and abuse by the councils themselves, who are likely getting back handlers from giving the lucrative essentially unlimited cost transport contracts to people they know and not attempting to atleast question why some of these fees are so excessive.
PhyllisCaunter on
The massive explosion in SEND diagnosis means the system is going to topple over without urgent reform. Otherwise the children with the most acute needs will suffer the most.
PersistentWorld on
The suggestion that 20% of our children have special educational needs is just nonsense.
Actual-Butterfly2350 on
Parents being given the responsibility and cost of getting their kids to school is a great idea, apart from when you factor in the fact that there are barely any SEN school places meaning the only suitable ones with spaces are a long distance away. Then you factor in both parents needing to work because the cost of living isn’t sustainable therefore the time a round trip takes twice a day isn’t feasible. There are also the circumstances where one child is SEN in a multiple child family and this is where the distance of the SEN provision comes in again. Very difficult to get one or more children to mainstream school while the SEN kid needs to get to a provision miles away at the same time.
I also think a lot of the general public who don’t have experience of this don’t realise that to get a SEN placement and transport, the child has to have an EHCP which is quite difficult to get and certainly not available to children who have mild difficulties so the argument of children being diagnosed with things as an excuse for poor behaviour doesn’t really stand up there.
Maybe if mainstream schools budgets hadn’t been so severely decimated they would be more able to keep more children locally?
Zanmato79 on
Was there talk of means testing families with SEN child(ren) to cover at in part the transport costs. There certainly was last year in Lancashire.
> Its recommendations included the introduction of means testing, so that families of SEND children whose household income exceeds a certain level would be expected to make a financial contribution to their travel costs.
I think there is a push to attach specialist units to mainstream schools, but how good that provision will be remains to be seen as opposed to either a council run or private specialist school.
Often parents will take the Lead Education Authority (LEA) to tribunal to get their preferred provision and 99% of the time will win meaning the LEA foot the bill.
I have SEN daughter and are seeking specialist provision for her. Undoubtedly if and when that time comes, transport will be a headache for us.
JaffaCakeScoffer on
People have known about this for ages, but like with many issues, opposing this absolute madness risks you being labelled as someone who doesn’t are about SEND children. Politicians won’t touch it with a 10 foot pole.
unbelievablydull82 on
Good to see commentators wanting to throw SEN kids under the bus on here. The numbers aren’t the kids fault, they’re the government’s fault for closing down SEN schools, for mismanagement of funds, things that the government needs to fix. Reducing opportunities for SEN kids to have an education, reducing their chances to have any positive role in society is pathetic, and inhumane. Tough choices always seem to mean the most vulnerable people become worse off, all whilst the rich make more and more money. Cowards will always kick parents of SEN kids, and the kids themselves, whilst bending over and letting the rich ride them
Mr_Bobby_D_ on
There needs to be a better process for transportation rather than just using local taxi firms who seem to charge hugely inflated fares …minibuses managed by local authorities or something perhaps ?
0Bento on
This is exactly the sort of thing I expect my taxes to pay for. Quite why this is being portrayed as a scandal is beyond me.
batchelorm77 on
It’s ridiculous we are paying for this out of tax payers money. You have children knowing one of your responsibilities will be to get them to school, why has it now become the responsibility of the government.
I understand some more limiting disabilities need some assistance but nowhere near what is being currently accommodated. Couple this with the massive over diagnosis of ADHD, Autism and Anxiety being used by parents to beat the schools up with EHCPs and I cannot see how we can continue to sustain this.
MoblandJordan on
How come we can’t just have school busses in this country?
WaitroseValueVodka on
These are going to be children with profound disabilities who need special schools.
Ideally we’d have enough special school provision to allow these children to have a short journey to their school with their parents. But we don’t, so the highest need children need to travel long distances for school.
throwaway_ArBe on
A lot of people in these comments don’t seem to be aware that getting an EHCP (which councils routinely wrongfully deny, forcing the issue to go through appeals at the tax payers expense) requires a lot of thorough assessment. You can’t just decide that you want an EHCPB for your child and then trick people into it.
Wiseman738 on
It does appear that us Brits have a special knack for the cost of things spiralling out of control from nuclear reactors and high speed railways to SEND provision. It appears to be a systematic issue. This is the best argument for there being a centralised pot of SEND funds distributed from central govt directly rather than through reams of middlemen. Then we can hopefully see where the money is going more clearly and identify areas where it is being exploited. As someone whose worked in the SEND sector I know there is significant undercutting of costs by private firms which are maximising profit.
Whilst we’re at it, maybe we consider a ‘max spend per X per student’ like we do with medications in the NHS — as there’s no official cap to EHCP costs. With special dispensations for students who have extreme needs/disabilities where a lack of support would result in death/injuriy/dramatic reduction in quality of life — e.g physical disabilities which require specialist transport that might be possible only in specific vehicles.
AdrianFish on
I really need to get into one of these dodgy sectors that crooked ministers give shit loads of money to with no questions asked. It sounds far better than my current routine of getting up at 6 every weekday and working a job for a living.
Material_Focus_4114 on
Does this actually just include the send provision though? Because I know that anyone that lives over 3 miles away from school is entitled to school transport, so is this not including that, because that would make more sense? For send provision where children are taken to specialist schools, these are usually mini buses, offering a routine and support on the journey..I’m not sure how that could amount to £2bn?
And by the way I am in receipt of neither so have no bias, just common decency. There will always be some that abuse the system, it shouldn’t be at the cost of those that need it.
Radiant_Fondant_4097 on
Ah yes the humble “r/unitedkingdom dumping on the disabled” thread again, you could make a bingo tally of these regular posts;
– “There is no magic money tree”
– “Families should just pack up and move”
– “They won’t amount to anything anyway”
– “I don’t have any solutions”
– “They should just be taken out and left”
– “Parents should take responsibility”
– “It’s all just made up anyway for benefits”
Come on man, it’s tiresome.
Gc1981 on
4 doors up from me are married cousins who have 6 kids. 2 are disabled to the point they get taxis to and from school even though the have a adapted vw transporter set up to take both wheelchairs. Neither work. In fact you wouldn’t even know the dad was there if you didn’t hear him shouting all the time. Presumably the house and everything else are state funded, unless they have a benefactor somewhere. How is this sustainable. Some sort of professional should step in at some point.
voice_noter on
Coming from a parent of a SEND child I do see this as an issue.
There are definitely circumstances where it is suitable for the child but I honestly see people who basically use it because they can and don’t actually need it.
When you apply for a SEND school or provision you do not get a choice where you can go, obviously if your in the catchment area which I was we luckily got a place there so I take my child there, where I stay I would say the furthest away school is around 30 minutes drive if needed I would personally drive there, that’s my choice but others could be further away or basically have no way of getting them there,
Our LA actually have a mini bus that picks children up which is great to see but there’s still around 6 taxis dropping children off. I’m not sure how applications go but I think it needs to be looked at on an individual basis and need and have it a bit stricter.
No_Pea-1 on
My next door neighbours have two kids with special needs. They’re like 5-6 years old, non verbal, not great at using the toilet, ipad addicted, etc.
The boyfriend lives there but on paper so the girlfriend gets more money. Around 32k a year. They own the house outright. He has a 30hr a week job and his own car etc at a local shop.
She hasn’t got a job because the children are a lot of work. He doesnt really help with the kids.
The kids get a taxi 30 miles to school and back…
CakeAndFireworksDay on
Fuck me would it not be cheaper for the government to just give the money to the parents ? Then they can find a cab or take the money and drive them themselves
Consistent-Pirate-23 on
I was in a taxi to school because of SEND provision back in the late 80s/ early 90s.
My parents wanted me to go to school closer but back then it was a battle to get a kid that needed any kind of SEND provision to be alllowed to go to state school, let alone choose where.
My mum couldn’t drive and the distance was within the realms that irrespective of SEND then the travel was taken care of. There were 5 of us between 2 schools, picked up in an ordinary car. I was first picked up and last dropped off as it was longest journey.
jodrellbank_pants on
They closed a school near me, paid for by parents of disabled kids even the bus that picked them up was supplied by parents at zero cost to the county.
Council wanted them in normal schools, with zero extra help all because of inclusion.
Cost 250k plus to taxi them to school for one term now.
Just mindbogglingly dumb.
monkey36937 on
The people who are running the service are taking the piss. The free market is a place where people take the piss instead of providing a good service.
Zu1u1875 on
GP and parent here. So many excuses from parents for their kids not being able to go to school – from across the social spectrum. Parents need to take responsibility and teach their kids some resilience and determination and discipline and rules.
Nielips on
At some point there needs to be a discussion regarding how much spend per child is justifiable, it’s not a nice topic, but you can’t spend such extreme amounts on such a small number of children/people when an area in general is so deprived. It’s the opposite of equity, as it’s actively depriving a majority for the sake of a minority, there needs to be a balance.
Likely this should be done by investing and better planning, so things aren’t outsourced at great expense, and by creating cross regional plans to minimise long expensive journey and centralise resources/use resources more efficiently. I think the general public is somewhat responsible for creating this enormous cost on councils by the way they have voted, and people turning their noses up at investment. Everyone is quick to point out “Government over spending”, but no one wants to take responsibility for their voting record and companies they collectively own and work for taking the piss with their profit margins on public contracts that councils have no other option to accept.
professorquizwhitty on
If i get a taxi from where i live to where i work it costs £35, if a child with the funding gets a taxi (and all the taxi drivers do the school run) each driver is paid roughly £100 for that trip.
Make it make sense.
IlIIIllIIlIlllII on
So I own a nursery. Last school year (pre september) HALF our children were either additional or special needs and of the additional needs group the parents were pushing for diagnosis.
4 of them were getting EHCP (additional funding to support paying of one to one staffing or additional resources). The rest we were told to cope with. These are children with needs require an entire member of staff just for them and we are being told to deal with it. We were making a LOSS of every child on a EHCP because they money you get is less than what it costs to pay someone minimum wage. Imagine trying to tell a parent they can’t being their child in because the member of staff hired to look after their child on a 1 to 1 basis has quit.
We lost 4 or 5 staff via stress, had two or three complaints to ofsted because some of these parents didn’t think we were being fair when we said no to some of their unreasonable reasonable requests.
We had 12 requests for children to stay behind a year so they could fight for places in special schools. It was mentally and financially a stressful blackmore and I had to say no to them all.
I will give a controversial take, we have seen a HUGE spike in parents trying to get their children diagnosed with anything because of the potential of getting PIP and other care allowances. Parents insisting their child is this and that and we are getting completely different experiences because we have rules and boundaries in place they might not have at home.
Adorable_Past9114 on
I work at a special needs school, and our students come from Surrey, W. London, Central London, etc. As great as a bus would be, it’s not practical for several reasons, time being one.
Additionally, our students require a minimum of 1:1 staffing and complex needs, if they were kept at home the parents would have to stay home and not work (so would be getting carers allowance etc) and would still need additional help.
33 Comments
It is entirely unsustainable and the hard truth is parents are going to have to take the responsibility for getting their children to and from school.
I mean, the cost is absolutely insane and isn’t sustainable at all.
But I refuse to believe it costs 2 billion to send less than 2 million children to school.
It’s just brazen corruption and massive overspending. Just get someone to look through it all and root out the people who are utterly taking the piss.
Edit: Reading further into this, the 2 billion is just for a certain percentage. Councils are actually projected to spend 14.8 billion on students this year and it’s not actually 2 million students, less than 700k qualify for the highest levels of support.
So can everyone commenting “It’s only £5 a day! It’s fine” please fucking stop.
It’s not fine. The costs are utterly insane.
These kids might need assistance, but people are absolutely taking the piss out of the government.
Hidden cost of needing all parents to work. Maybe it’s about time school hours adapted like so many other countries?
Edit: Pre and post working hours, so from 8am and until 6pm. They should be voluntary and we should think of it as providing activities and centralised childcare – not extend schooling.
They should NOT be run by teachers – the police have PSCOs, pharmacist and nurse roles have expanded to support doctors. Education needs to catch up with modern life.
For context we spend 2.4 billion rebuilding schools each year to make them safe. We are giving taxi drivers almost the same amount as we are trying to spend just keeping the schools upright.
It’s unfortunately a combination of abuse of the system by the companies overcharging and making massive profits from the tax payers expense, abuse by the parents getting their children diagnosed with disabilities on purpose because it lets them get additional benefits and abuse by the councils themselves, who are likely getting back handlers from giving the lucrative essentially unlimited cost transport contracts to people they know and not attempting to atleast question why some of these fees are so excessive.
The massive explosion in SEND diagnosis means the system is going to topple over without urgent reform. Otherwise the children with the most acute needs will suffer the most.
The suggestion that 20% of our children have special educational needs is just nonsense.
Parents being given the responsibility and cost of getting their kids to school is a great idea, apart from when you factor in the fact that there are barely any SEN school places meaning the only suitable ones with spaces are a long distance away. Then you factor in both parents needing to work because the cost of living isn’t sustainable therefore the time a round trip takes twice a day isn’t feasible. There are also the circumstances where one child is SEN in a multiple child family and this is where the distance of the SEN provision comes in again. Very difficult to get one or more children to mainstream school while the SEN kid needs to get to a provision miles away at the same time.
I also think a lot of the general public who don’t have experience of this don’t realise that to get a SEN placement and transport, the child has to have an EHCP which is quite difficult to get and certainly not available to children who have mild difficulties so the argument of children being diagnosed with things as an excuse for poor behaviour doesn’t really stand up there.
Maybe if mainstream schools budgets hadn’t been so severely decimated they would be more able to keep more children locally?
Was there talk of means testing families with SEN child(ren) to cover at in part the transport costs. There certainly was last year in Lancashire.
> Its recommendations included the introduction of means testing, so that families of SEND children whose household income exceeds a certain level would be expected to make a financial contribution to their travel costs.
I think there is a push to attach specialist units to mainstream schools, but how good that provision will be remains to be seen as opposed to either a council run or private specialist school.
Often parents will take the Lead Education Authority (LEA) to tribunal to get their preferred provision and 99% of the time will win meaning the LEA foot the bill.
https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/24129794.lancashire-spiralling-cost-special-educational-needs-transport/
I have SEN daughter and are seeking specialist provision for her. Undoubtedly if and when that time comes, transport will be a headache for us.
People have known about this for ages, but like with many issues, opposing this absolute madness risks you being labelled as someone who doesn’t are about SEND children. Politicians won’t touch it with a 10 foot pole.
Good to see commentators wanting to throw SEN kids under the bus on here. The numbers aren’t the kids fault, they’re the government’s fault for closing down SEN schools, for mismanagement of funds, things that the government needs to fix. Reducing opportunities for SEN kids to have an education, reducing their chances to have any positive role in society is pathetic, and inhumane. Tough choices always seem to mean the most vulnerable people become worse off, all whilst the rich make more and more money. Cowards will always kick parents of SEN kids, and the kids themselves, whilst bending over and letting the rich ride them
There needs to be a better process for transportation rather than just using local taxi firms who seem to charge hugely inflated fares …minibuses managed by local authorities or something perhaps ?
This is exactly the sort of thing I expect my taxes to pay for. Quite why this is being portrayed as a scandal is beyond me.
It’s ridiculous we are paying for this out of tax payers money. You have children knowing one of your responsibilities will be to get them to school, why has it now become the responsibility of the government.
I understand some more limiting disabilities need some assistance but nowhere near what is being currently accommodated. Couple this with the massive over diagnosis of ADHD, Autism and Anxiety being used by parents to beat the schools up with EHCPs and I cannot see how we can continue to sustain this.
How come we can’t just have school busses in this country?
These are going to be children with profound disabilities who need special schools.
Ideally we’d have enough special school provision to allow these children to have a short journey to their school with their parents. But we don’t, so the highest need children need to travel long distances for school.
A lot of people in these comments don’t seem to be aware that getting an EHCP (which councils routinely wrongfully deny, forcing the issue to go through appeals at the tax payers expense) requires a lot of thorough assessment. You can’t just decide that you want an EHCPB for your child and then trick people into it.
It does appear that us Brits have a special knack for the cost of things spiralling out of control from nuclear reactors and high speed railways to SEND provision. It appears to be a systematic issue. This is the best argument for there being a centralised pot of SEND funds distributed from central govt directly rather than through reams of middlemen. Then we can hopefully see where the money is going more clearly and identify areas where it is being exploited. As someone whose worked in the SEND sector I know there is significant undercutting of costs by private firms which are maximising profit.
Whilst we’re at it, maybe we consider a ‘max spend per X per student’ like we do with medications in the NHS — as there’s no official cap to EHCP costs. With special dispensations for students who have extreme needs/disabilities where a lack of support would result in death/injuriy/dramatic reduction in quality of life — e.g physical disabilities which require specialist transport that might be possible only in specific vehicles.
I really need to get into one of these dodgy sectors that crooked ministers give shit loads of money to with no questions asked. It sounds far better than my current routine of getting up at 6 every weekday and working a job for a living.
Does this actually just include the send provision though? Because I know that anyone that lives over 3 miles away from school is entitled to school transport, so is this not including that, because that would make more sense? For send provision where children are taken to specialist schools, these are usually mini buses, offering a routine and support on the journey..I’m not sure how that could amount to £2bn?
And by the way I am in receipt of neither so have no bias, just common decency. There will always be some that abuse the system, it shouldn’t be at the cost of those that need it.
Ah yes the humble “r/unitedkingdom dumping on the disabled” thread again, you could make a bingo tally of these regular posts;
– “There is no magic money tree”
– “Families should just pack up and move”
– “They won’t amount to anything anyway”
– “I don’t have any solutions”
– “They should just be taken out and left”
– “Parents should take responsibility”
– “It’s all just made up anyway for benefits”
Come on man, it’s tiresome.
4 doors up from me are married cousins who have 6 kids. 2 are disabled to the point they get taxis to and from school even though the have a adapted vw transporter set up to take both wheelchairs. Neither work. In fact you wouldn’t even know the dad was there if you didn’t hear him shouting all the time. Presumably the house and everything else are state funded, unless they have a benefactor somewhere. How is this sustainable. Some sort of professional should step in at some point.
Coming from a parent of a SEND child I do see this as an issue.
There are definitely circumstances where it is suitable for the child but I honestly see people who basically use it because they can and don’t actually need it.
When you apply for a SEND school or provision you do not get a choice where you can go, obviously if your in the catchment area which I was we luckily got a place there so I take my child there, where I stay I would say the furthest away school is around 30 minutes drive if needed I would personally drive there, that’s my choice but others could be further away or basically have no way of getting them there,
Our LA actually have a mini bus that picks children up which is great to see but there’s still around 6 taxis dropping children off. I’m not sure how applications go but I think it needs to be looked at on an individual basis and need and have it a bit stricter.
My next door neighbours have two kids with special needs. They’re like 5-6 years old, non verbal, not great at using the toilet, ipad addicted, etc.
The boyfriend lives there but on paper so the girlfriend gets more money. Around 32k a year. They own the house outright. He has a 30hr a week job and his own car etc at a local shop.
She hasn’t got a job because the children are a lot of work. He doesnt really help with the kids.
The kids get a taxi 30 miles to school and back…
Fuck me would it not be cheaper for the government to just give the money to the parents ? Then they can find a cab or take the money and drive them themselves
I was in a taxi to school because of SEND provision back in the late 80s/ early 90s.
My parents wanted me to go to school closer but back then it was a battle to get a kid that needed any kind of SEND provision to be alllowed to go to state school, let alone choose where.
My mum couldn’t drive and the distance was within the realms that irrespective of SEND then the travel was taken care of. There were 5 of us between 2 schools, picked up in an ordinary car. I was first picked up and last dropped off as it was longest journey.
They closed a school near me, paid for by parents of disabled kids even the bus that picked them up was supplied by parents at zero cost to the county.
Council wanted them in normal schools, with zero extra help all because of inclusion.
Cost 250k plus to taxi them to school for one term now.
Just mindbogglingly dumb.
The people who are running the service are taking the piss. The free market is a place where people take the piss instead of providing a good service.
GP and parent here. So many excuses from parents for their kids not being able to go to school – from across the social spectrum. Parents need to take responsibility and teach their kids some resilience and determination and discipline and rules.
At some point there needs to be a discussion regarding how much spend per child is justifiable, it’s not a nice topic, but you can’t spend such extreme amounts on such a small number of children/people when an area in general is so deprived. It’s the opposite of equity, as it’s actively depriving a majority for the sake of a minority, there needs to be a balance.
Likely this should be done by investing and better planning, so things aren’t outsourced at great expense, and by creating cross regional plans to minimise long expensive journey and centralise resources/use resources more efficiently. I think the general public is somewhat responsible for creating this enormous cost on councils by the way they have voted, and people turning their noses up at investment. Everyone is quick to point out “Government over spending”, but no one wants to take responsibility for their voting record and companies they collectively own and work for taking the piss with their profit margins on public contracts that councils have no other option to accept.
If i get a taxi from where i live to where i work it costs £35, if a child with the funding gets a taxi (and all the taxi drivers do the school run) each driver is paid roughly £100 for that trip.
Make it make sense.
So I own a nursery. Last school year (pre september) HALF our children were either additional or special needs and of the additional needs group the parents were pushing for diagnosis.
4 of them were getting EHCP (additional funding to support paying of one to one staffing or additional resources). The rest we were told to cope with. These are children with needs require an entire member of staff just for them and we are being told to deal with it. We were making a LOSS of every child on a EHCP because they money you get is less than what it costs to pay someone minimum wage. Imagine trying to tell a parent they can’t being their child in because the member of staff hired to look after their child on a 1 to 1 basis has quit.
We lost 4 or 5 staff via stress, had two or three complaints to ofsted because some of these parents didn’t think we were being fair when we said no to some of their unreasonable reasonable requests.
We had 12 requests for children to stay behind a year so they could fight for places in special schools. It was mentally and financially a stressful blackmore and I had to say no to them all.
I will give a controversial take, we have seen a HUGE spike in parents trying to get their children diagnosed with anything because of the potential of getting PIP and other care allowances. Parents insisting their child is this and that and we are getting completely different experiences because we have rules and boundaries in place they might not have at home.
I work at a special needs school, and our students come from Surrey, W. London, Central London, etc. As great as a bus would be, it’s not practical for several reasons, time being one.
Additionally, our students require a minimum of 1:1 staffing and complex needs, if they were kept at home the parents would have to stay home and not work (so would be getting carers allowance etc) and would still need additional help.